Replies: 14 comments
on Friday, June 16th, AerynSun said:
Let me see if I understood this correctly:
They are issuing a law forbidding postmodernism?
Why not issue a law against hurricanes too while they're at it?
on Friday, June 16th, Jason. said:
"No one ever lost money betting on the stupidity of the American public."
on Friday, June 16th, Chica said:
Aerysun,
I think you are exagerating the intent of the bill. It's nothing so ambitious, rather just another in a long string of attempts to indoctrinate the youth of America.
on Friday, June 16th, faith said:
Not so much a ban on postmodernism, but on the teaching of it. Remember: we Americans don't trust anything French unless it comes in fry form.
on Monday, June 19th, Nathan DeGraaf said:
Seems kind of stupid to have the government control education. Seems like the private sector may do a better job.
on Wednesday, June 21st, faith said:
I have no problem letting government have a hand in ensuring through legislation that certain disciplines of human knowledge be taught; but certainly not in how they are taught (within reason).
Sorry, Norbert--but I think sending education to the private sector would be a colossally bad idea. How can one make that miserable thing we call a public education system in this country more insufferable? Adding the half-assed ethics and "cost-cutting" solutions that follow from the introduction of profit into the equation.
on Thursday, June 22nd, Nathan DeGraaf said:
I don't mean free education. I mean the elimination of taxes for education, welfare, property and all that other crap. A true education cannot and should not be taught by the people who control us, because they may then remove that information vital to our individuality. You socialists are like a guy with s hitty car who keeps going back to the same mechanic. Buy a new fucking car. The system is shit.
on Thursday, June 22nd, faith said:
I advocate the elimination of property entirely. That would effectively eliminate taxes on education, welfare, and whatnot.
I agree that ideally education should not be administered by those that control us. From this it follows that it should not be run by GE, Microsoft, or Disney, right? Talk about sacrificing individuality! At least with government run by the people there is a voice (albeit a continuously diminishing one) in how education is to be run; I highly doubt the CEO of company X would allow such ("For homework tonight, get your parents to buy this product").
Your analogy is an interesting one. I wonder who is trying to patch up the old car: the socialist who advocates subtle changes to "fix" the problems of capitalism, or the socialist who finally figures out that the car is broken beyond repair (or, perhaps, realizes that it will "cost" more to fix than just getting rid of it and starting over). I am one of the latter.
btw: this might be a good time to point out that the tenets of lassiez-faire capitalism and democracy are in practice contradictory. Capitalism works best under an oligarchy, and tends to turn democracy into such (as we have now).
on Thursday, June 22nd, Nathan DeGraaf said:
I'm talking about private schools not private industry. Let individual communities take up individual collections to raise and educate their children. Let communities decide whether or not they need roads. I'm not talking about putting GE in charge. I'm talking about eleminating collectivism (which is disguised under the name of socialism). You can't keep going back to the same system that screws you and expect it to help you. Much like the mechanic who keeps pretending to fix your car, the system just laughs at your attempst to massage it, licks its lips , and continues to rip us off. By putting the power in the hands of individuals (the purest form of Capitalism), you create a society for and by the people. By urging socialism, you create more governemtn. And as Thomas Jefferson said, "The same government that can provide happiness is the same government that can take it away." You push for socialism, but the world has been getting more and more socialist since the freaking twenties. World socialism is why the gap keeps growing between the rich and poor. There's no chance for freedom when the governments of the world can claim all the land "in the name of the people." Like it or not, our society is way more socialist than capitalist. And it sucks because of it.
on Thursday, June 22nd, faith said:
When I was in France in 1999, I got into a conversation with someone at a bar who happened to speak English. And--as the French like to do--the conversation shifted to the US and its screwed up foreign policy. At some point in the conversation I admitted to him that I'm a Marxist. His response: "Oh, really. What type?"
At the time, I was dumbfounded by the question. I had never until then been to a place that actually teaches political economy in such a way (or, perhaps, at all). In the US, one who studies economics studies capitalism; in Europe, that same student learns economic theory. Blanketed in the ignorance of not only the American general public, but also so-called “students” of economics in the US, I am used to a handful of straw-man arguments against Marx and socialism whose lack of validity shows a general distain for logic, let alone economic theory. Perhaps the most consistent error is thinking there is a thing called 'socialism.'
There are indeed many stripes of Marxism (or socialism), just as there are many types of Christianity. And, just as many fucked up things have been done in the name of Jesus, so too have they with Marx. It doesn't mean that Marxism in its true form is wrong, just as it does not mean that the teachings of Jesus are themselves inherently evil.
The turn toward socialism and the development of mixed economies happened in the 1930's, in response to the failure of laissez-faire capitalism. We called it the "Great Depression." In response to the collapse of the world economy, the president at the time, that great "socialist" FDR, called for a "New Deal." It is false to say that socialism is responsible for the gap between rich and poor, since the middle class in the US (a completely twentieth century creation) has only existed as a direct consequence of FDR's "socialism."
If you aren't an advocate of these reforms, then you probably don't like the idea of minimum wage, nor of overtime pay, nor of child-labor laws, nor of the forty hour work week--all of these were among the "socialist" reforms to capitalism since the 1920's. But I'm sure that's not what you mean (I hope). A preliminary moral: we need to get clear about what you mean by socialism (what “type” of socialism you are talking about) before we can really discuss the benefits/harms that may ensue.
Incidentally: New Hampshire has such an education system as you describe. No state funds are used to support education, only local property taxes. The problem is that poor areas have shitty schools and rich areas excellent schools; and since the economic well-being of an area is proportional to the level of education, neither school quality nor property values would rise--the most vicious kind of circle.
I think you agree that some laws (murder, rape, theft) are necessary. And yes, putting economic controls in the hands of government scares some. But public education, I think, might be one of these 'necessary evil' socialist ideas since without an educated population, true democracy cannot exist.
on Thursday, June 22nd, Nathan DeGraaf said:
Actually Tom, I am against minimum wage, and I'm against child labor laws, and mandatory work week limits. I am against all those things that limit freedom. I am against a fiat money based economy and everything else that socialism stands for. I believe in the original constituion (sans slavery, which was never technically written in, but whatever). I believe in the gold standard, I believe in freedom of speech, I believe in the right to bare arms and the right to pursue happiness. I believe in freedom the way it was meant to be. Remember, the biggest monetary supporter of Marx was Rockefeller. There's a reason for that. Take away the opportunity for all and the rich can keep their cash. Limiting the work week may seem like some humanitarian gimmick, but to the guy with the most workers, it just means that the game is now rigged in his favor. Naturally, I'm against murder, rape, theft, dirty water, rancid food and many other things, but freedom is not one of them. Just remember, do not be fooled, the rich love socialism. It makes it harder for them to lose their station in life.
on Thursday, June 22nd, Nathan DeGraaf said:
And by the way, the crash of the thirties was caused by the federal reserve act, which allowed the government to restrict and contract the money supply. They made it look like capitalism failed, but that was the direct result of getting off the gold standard (Federal Reserve Act of 1917). Everyone who turned to the govt for help were completely fucking fooled. They didn't realize that it was the govt (influenced by the richest people in the world) that had done this to them. A purely capatalist system may be base and ugly, but it works because we are base and ugly. And the sad thing is, so many good hearted and intelligent people like yourself have faith in this socialist system because, for whatever reason, you never got stock broker licenses and learned how the economy really works. Socialism, Marxism, whatever you want to call it, as applied to the world, is the very opposite of freedom. This convo started because I don't think the govt should control what we learn. And neither do you. Your solution is to massage a failed system, mine is to abolish it completely and go back to what made America the richest country in the world. The problem here is that you see the beauty in the theories of change and I see the practicality of abandoning a failed system and going with what worked. We'll never agree. Mainly because we're both so stubborn. But the truth, as I see it, is that we've been socialist in this country since 1917. And we've only gotten worse.
on Thursday, June 22nd, faith said:
Capitalists always use "freedom" in such a very narrow sense. I'm for freedom, too: economic freedom. If we have to let a little political freedom go to allow that (within reason) then that's a trade-off. You can have my right to bear arms (the right to "bare arms" I think is only in the Articles of Confederacy) in exchange for a little affordable health-care; that's a good trade any day of the week.
As far as I can tell, if you're into freedom, happiness, and the flourishing of mankind then you should be a Marxist. The only way to allow for true freedom is to throw off the system of wage-slavery to which we are currently subject. I'm afraid that you may just be blinded by ideology here to see that societies are more than just political units.
I actually agree with you that that socialist reforms to capitalism are not enough. What we disagree on is the alternative. You want to scrap mixed economies and go back to the caves where economic might makes right, whereas I want to scrap this antiquated system of unfreedom that we do have and replace it with a more civilized system that gets rid of property entirely. Under a Marxist system there could be no "tak[ing] away the opportunity for all and the rich can keep their cash," since there is no property, let alone money.
As to our "base and ugly" character, it's a post hoc problem. It seems to me we are not greedy by nature, but rather that capitalism makes us into monsters.
I'm not sure what to make of such sweeping statements as "socialism . . . is the very opposite of freedom," which seem to be uninformed and rather dogmatic. As to the details, however, I can help:
- Article I (sections i and ii) and Ariticle IV (section ii) of the Constitution all mention slavery either explicitly or implicitly.
- I have seen no evidence of any connection between Marx and Rocekfeller. A search of the Collected Works reveals one reference in a footnote (vol. 26).
- The Federal Reverve Act was 1913. I think you mean the War Powers Act of 1917.
- The gold standard was only temporarily abandoned to artificially create inflation to spur productivity for WWI.
- The US was on the gold standard until 1933 (after the stock market crash, and past the beginning of the Depression).
on Wednesday, June 28th, AerynSun said:
Always great to see there are some people in America with an approximation of european standard in political knowledge.
*evil snigger*
Freedom is a misused word.